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10 Epic Enemies of Ancient Rome

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Support our efforts to make videos about what we want: https://www.patreon.com/toptenz/overview Check my other channel Biographics! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClnDI2sdehVm1zm_LmUHsjQ →Subscribe for new videos every day! https://www.youtube.com/user/toptenznet?sub_confirmation=1 Find more lists at: http://www.toptenz.net Entertaining and educational top 10 lists from TopTenzNet! Subscribe to our Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TopTenz/ Business inquiries to [email protected] Other TopTenz Videos: 10 Perverts Who Changed the World For the Better https://youtu.be/FkBmAOwkVIE?list=PLQ4d2-ByGhnKUFXyekxgY1xuFObYL-Icg Top 10 Famous Liars Throughout History https://youtu.be/q8xlRaLFTrc?list=PLQ4d2-ByGhnKUFXyekxgY1xuFObYL-Icg Text version: https://www.toptenz.net/10-epic-enemies-of-ancient-rome.php Coming up: 10. King Pyrrhus 9. Archimedes 8. Mithridates 7. Vercingetorix 6. Queen Boudica 5. King Shapur I 4. Spartacus 3. Attila the Hun 2. King Alaric 1. Hannibal Barca Source/Further reading: https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/37 http://www.ancient-origins.net/history-famous-people/mithridates-vi-pontus-poison-king-pontus-and-aggravation-rome-005907 http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/britannia/miscellanea/vercingetorix.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/iron_01.shtml https://www.ancient.eu/valerian/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/11651780/Gladiator-school-to-be-restored-in-Rome.html https://www.history.com/news/history-lists/8-things-you-might-not-know-about-attila-the-hun https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/apr/03/where-muck-hannibals-elephants-alps-italy-bill-mahaney-york-university-toronto https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_Empire_Trajan_117AD.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Juan_de_la_Corte_-_Battle_Scene_with_a_Roman_Army_Besieging_a_Large_City_-_WGA05366.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_the_Pyrrhic_War_(280%E2%80%93275_BC)_(English).jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pyrhhus_-_Ny_Carlsberg_Glyptotek,_Copenhagen,_Den.JPG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pyrrhus_and_his_Elephants.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pyrrhus_MAN_Napoli_Inv6150_n03.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The-Siege-Of-Sparta-By-Pyrrhus-319-272-Bc-1799-1800.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Domain_changes_during_the_Punic_Wars.gif https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:First_Punic_War_264_BC.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Archimedesclaw.gif https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Archimedes_cigar_box.jpg
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Text Comments (291)
Eric Salinas (2 days ago)
I think Mithradates should have been ranked higher than Boudicca and Vercengeterix. He fought Rome over 20 years and it took 3 of the greatest generals, Sulla, Lucius Lucinus, snd Pompey to defeat him. Also, Chrondomarius should have been given an honorable mention.
mayoite160 (3 days ago)
WTFH no Arminius, no Surenas??!!
Alkuccino Lambo (3 days ago)
Most of the people listed were Greeks
speedtribejp (4 days ago)
Christianity, caused Romans to abandon their religion causing the Vestal holy fire to go out causing the Empire to collapse. Empire was strongest when it honored Jupiter and Hercules
eylam90 (8 days ago)
I would take Archimedes and Boudica off this list and put king Geiseric the Vandal and Queen Zenobia of Palmyra instead.
Lulzim Lalinovci (10 days ago)
Pirro never was a Greeke, he was Illyrian
DanceySteve (12 days ago)
Archimedes got 'screwed'?
muther1997 (13 days ago)
Vercingetorix, Boudicca, Archimedes and Spartacus are some of my favorite people in history. However men like Atilla did the worls a favor by dying
Milty (16 days ago)
Archimedes over Arminius?? seriously
Milty (16 days ago)
this list is a total joke without Arminius anywhere on the list
Senovitj (21 days ago)
Forget Boudicca. Bring on Zenobia of the Palmyrene Empire, which encompassed Syria, the Levant, parts of Anatolia and Egypt, for an impressive enemy to Rome. Or, Queen Mavia of the Tanukhids, who set the terms for an eventual truce between her and the Romans after a succesful attack on Phoenicia and Palestine.
bev davis (26 days ago)
Boudicca was a loser. He rabble was destroyed. Tomyris destroyed Cyrus the Great. Now she was a real warrior queen. Alaric respected Stilicho. When Stilicho was murdered, Alaric went on a ride around the Empire. He is the man who ended Sparta.
Samuel J. Robinson (26 days ago)
Actually the Romans just called the Barbars barbarbians and called every other tribe by their names! They may have compared other tribes to the Barbarians but that's not the same!
Nobody Knows (30 days ago)
Rome is not "50 miles" from Carthage, but actually 367 direct line.
feral four eighty (1 month ago)
Boudica was defeated in 61 AD, not 81 AD.
Hamguy Bacon (1 month ago)
i doubt he was treated as a slave, slavery was banned in persia.
melissa jackson (1 month ago)
Her name was Boadicea the romans called her Boudicca
david vidovic (1 month ago)
your voice is the enemy of history!
Matthew McVeagh (1 month ago)
Brennus Jugurtha Arminius Decebalus Geiseric
Liquid Nitrogen (1 month ago)
Hannibal was bad as f***
Braden VanVleet (1 month ago)
Attila is made from the Gothic words Atta and ila, which mean father and little respectively. Atilla's name literally means "little daddy"...
Braden VanVleet (1 month ago)
Lol British dude calling the Sassanids the Sassanians...
victor soto (1 month ago)
The war with Carthage was actually the 1st WW.
Emily Curewitz (1 month ago)
what? No Arminius???
dominoes37 (2 months ago)
I also think King Jugurtha should of been included. Particularly since his war involved notorious use of bribery and deceit
Man Drake (2 months ago)
You forgot to mention a small village of Gauls held out after Vercingetorix surrendered thanks to some powerful warriors and a cauldron of magic potion.
Joey Ellis (2 months ago)
Rome was not the greatest empire the world had ever seen. It was the greatest in the West. China was the empire that existed before and after the Roman Empire which lasted 11 centuries
Brian Ticas (1 month ago)
Rome never got taken over like China did. Mongolia bullied China way too much. Rome on the other hand, won lost, got back up and shook it all off. Rome was supposed to last 1000 years. Yes China is powerful now a days too. But I don't believe in the ancient world when it comes to being in power, were as powerful as Rome.
Aurélien b (2 months ago)
Brennus should have been on this list, being one the three alongside with Alaric and Hannibal to ever siege Rome
Hadija Brahim (3 months ago)
I thought that the Ghangis Khan had the biggest empire of the ancient world?
Hugo falcao (3 months ago)
Viriato?????
Milan Pavlovic (3 months ago)
The funds for this video were deducted from Imperator: Rome developmet budget.
Rui Branco (3 months ago)
General Surena? one of the biggest defeats of the romans, in the battle of carras and the lost of 7 legions?
Frantzy Derose (3 months ago)
Queen amanirenas of Nubia defeated the romans twice!
Jacob Ringenwald (3 months ago)
How was Arminius left off the list?
Ryan Hayward (3 months ago)
I'm glad you put Hannibal as #1, him and his father were SOBs to Rome.
gmoney king (3 months ago)
Uummm hannibal was black jus sayn
Alfie Hands (4 months ago)
I thought Marcus Crassus got molten gold poured down his throat
srzar (4 months ago)
What about Surena?
Jose Sánchez (4 months ago)
Rome had to bribe viriato's generals to make him assasinated. When they claim their reward, they were answered: "Rome doesn't pay traitors" and killed
Jose Sánchez (4 months ago)
Great video but Viriato is missing. A former shepherd who terrified roman troops in the iberian peninsula usin guerrilla tactics, in the third century B.C.
Lee Lauria (4 months ago)
Hannibal, Vercingetorox, Arminius, they should have been top 3
Jang Bae (4 months ago)
Wasnt pompey it was sulla that defeated mithradates..
Charlie Read (4 months ago)
Moral of the story is, if you’re about to be caught by the Romans it’s better to turn over your wrists.
Mehrdad Fatemi (4 months ago)
Surena, the Parthian general. The Parthian shot, Crassus head & molten gold. Should be mentioned imo. Just sayin
MAR Tayeb (4 months ago)
Where Jughurtha the Numidian king who died in rome prison ????????
Melysa Davitz (4 months ago)
I love you and your soothing voice! 😘
Chad Peterson (4 months ago)
Major error on Hannibal. After Carthage lost the 2nd Punic was Hannibal fled east. Where he would command a fleet for Antiochus the Great of the Seleucid Empire in their unsuccessful war against Rome.... so he doesn’t just kill himself like this videos says...
Joseph DESTAUBIN (4 months ago)
So Hannibal was probably the most brilliant General to ever exist in human history. I would love to see a biography on him.
Griffion Wyvrus (4 months ago)
Just to be fair, Scipio was also one of greatest general that the Roman ever had. Barca's defeat against him is justified. Scipio even respected Barca for his strategy and courageousness. After Barca's death, the Roman use his strategy to strengthen their legions.
Lord Of Woe (4 months ago)
Romae vivat. Romae incredibilis
Why is the map of the Punic War in Ukrainian?
Tim Hartmann (4 months ago)
Mainstream discourse manage recently fully minor get sweet magic prison testimony sea.
Diarra Dunlap (4 months ago)
I think that Quintus Sertorius also belongs on this kind of list. After fleeing Italia just prior to Lucius Cornelius Sulla's victory at the Battle of the Colline Gate outside of Rome during the civil war following the death of Gaius Marius, he went first to Sicilia, then to North Africa, and finally to Hispanic, where he set up his own government, took almost all of Hispanic Interior (nearer Spain) and kept the Roman governor Quintus Caecilius Metellus Pius confined to a section of the Hispanic Ulterior province (further Spain) for close to three years. It took both Metellus and Gnaeus Pompeius "Magnus" (Pompey the "Great") another three years to finally bring Sertorius down. Note: Seems to me that during the Late Republic, Rome's greatest threats almost always seem to be Roman-born and/or related. I suspect that Spartacus may actually have been a Roman officer reduced to gladiatorial slavery due to some major military infraction or other. Of course, Roman historians and chroniclers wouldn't want THAT to be known, if it is actually so. After all, in that period of Roman History, they already had plenty of renegade Roman military lights to list, what with Sulla leading an army on Rome while Consul; Marius doing the same while Sulla was off fighting Mithridates VI in Greece and Anatolia. Sulla doing it again and becoming Dictator; and Sertorius rampaging all about Hispanic.
Sage (4 months ago)
All of those kingdoms and cultures dessimated. I wonder what the world would have been like....how different it would have been...if Rome hadn't taken them all down...
InstigationFixation (4 months ago)
Why would he poison himself with the same poison he'd been building a tolerance to?
Eugene Mcmicael (4 months ago)
What about Arminius?
Randy Lunn (4 months ago)
Crisp and insightful. Excellent overview. Thx
l maynard (4 months ago)
hey I really want to thank you guys for great videos on my playstation I never get to comment but Ive never seen one of your videos I didnt like
jahovia82 disdik (4 months ago)
I really cant get enough of ancient Rome.
Milkguy 98 (4 months ago)
Genseric the king of the Vandals had 3 incredible achievements: Sack of Carthage Sack of Rome Battle of Cap Bon (the romens had over a 1 000 ships) and he dosen't even gett a mentioning
Pretzel Stick (4 months ago)
Rome to Carthage 50 miles? Doubt it.
Connor Thompson (4 months ago)
If it hasn't already been done, I'd like to see a top ten list of historical naturalists. I'm pretty sure Alexander Von Humboldt would be on that list.
Mike Lcml5c (4 months ago)
I thought the Romans shacked Carthage and burned everything and salted the earth.
kimsey0000 (4 months ago)
To all the people whining about Armenius, and a few others, this list appears to be some of the lesser known Roman foes.
Mike Lcml5c (4 months ago)
But wait! Spartacus was crucified I saw it in the movie! Kirk Douglas played Spartacus. Just kidding I'm mocking Hollywood they're goofy.
Normie Cuck (3 months ago)
Fun movie tho
greaterrome (4 months ago)
wheres decebalus?
Sir Devil (4 months ago)
This is a pretty solid list.
Felix Schönweiß (4 months ago)
What about Arminius? He would be the only one on this list who actually defeated the Romans in the long term. He united many germanic tribes under his banner and lured the Roman legions in a trap. In one battle, he annihilated 1/8 of the whole roman army, driving them out of Germania forever.
Just Saying (4 months ago)
Pyrrhus should have been way higher, since he was such a formidable general and even inspired Hannibal, who deemed him and his cousin Alexander to be the greatest military minds the world had ever seen.
32079rme (4 months ago)
VERCENGETORIX is the most badass warrior name ever...
BARBATUS 89 (6 days ago)
I think it's a goodbutt name.
Joey Kevorkian (4 months ago)
Antiochus III?
James Grant (4 months ago)
TopTenz....you forgot about Arminius.
charles stuart (4 months ago)
How could they leave out Arminius of the Teutonberg Forrest battle - the greatest defeat of the Roman Empire. Aso knoown as Herman the German.
The Atlantean (4 months ago)
DUDE. It's pronounced Eye-scene-ee! Ffs
RoonMian (4 months ago)
What? No Arminius? No Augustus banging his head against the wall and screaming "Quintili Vare, legiones redde!" ("Quintilius Varus, give me back my legions!")? He was the reason only half of "Germania" became a Roman province because unlike Vercengetorix in Gallia he actually *won*. And also he has a gigantic memorial here in Germany, second largest copper statue in the world behind the Statue of Liberty in New York.
BARBATUS 89 (6 days ago)
Mongolia has a huge statue of the Khan but I don't know if it is copper. Arminius betrayed Rome, which is like betraying a traitor I guess.
Zzyzx Zee (1 month ago)
Andrew Smyth all lawyers should meet such a fate along with politicians
Emily Curewitz (1 month ago)
beat me to it!
Rui Branco (3 months ago)
they don t even mention surena!!!!
Ezyasnos (4 months ago)
Indeed, he put Rome and August in quite some trouble, unlike Boudicca, who, despite her army vastly outnumbered that of the Romans locally, couldn't even remotely put a dent in the Roman power. Boudicca is vastly overrated. Of course it's cool to see a woman take a stance, but that's all there is to her. I mean, what about Orodes II, king of the Parthians, who defeated a rather large army led by Crassus? That was a really major blow, essentially paving the way for Caesar to seize power and cause the downfall of the republic! Hell, even Julius Civilis caused the Romans more trouble than Boudicca. I guess it has to do with British nationalism.
Ronin Sama (4 months ago)
Why is Hannibal white is this video?!
Vangos Hector (3 months ago)
He was Phoenician decent and therefore Caucasian. Blacks came to North Africa as slaves during the Ottoman Era
bedstuy rover (4 months ago)
prussian eagle. Hannibal only became white in the last 300 years; he is far from being alone in making this transition. Much of what passes as history will end up in the waste basket-like phrenology.
Prussian Eagle (4 months ago)
Because he was white
broootal warp (4 months ago)
Investigate 211
John Spera (4 months ago)
This was a fascinating list; great job, guys!
Boy In The Cave (4 months ago)
Is Hannibal a Berber (ancient Lybian)?
Bleak (4 months ago)
So how would it take to execute a guy by pouring molten gold down his throat? Quick, one hopes.
Papa Hunk (4 months ago)
ROMAN EMPAAH
Maes Mydog (4 months ago)
I AM BLOODY MISSING ARMINIUS THE CHERUSCIAN!!! Excuse me but are you kidding me? Why memoring Boudicca and Vercingetorix but NOT Arminius? Battle of Teutoborg Forest in 9 A.C., remember?
SovietRefusnik1 Golem (4 months ago)
The Jews..Had several wars with Rome. Bar Kochba at Betar almost defeated Rome.
Baki Péter (4 months ago)
What about Queen Zenobia? She too was a very tough foe of Emperor Aurelian
Romanian Székely (4 months ago)
Simon if you wanted to show the map of Romania (11:41) just put kind Dekebalus who win 2 wars agains Rome and destroyed 2 legion and killed at last one of the expetion leader.
Romanian Székely (3 months ago)
11:27 tell about Germany and show Romania and Hungary and 11:41 just Romania. Simon really know geograph.
MegaPrem (4 months ago)
👋istmbcgfbjybbbgfhn. Poop
Chris Djernaes (4 months ago)
Great video ... perhaps telling it in chronological order could have made it better?
Steeljaw XXI (4 months ago)
I'd appreciate it if he actually explained the rules. It's called "Top Tenz", but I don't know if there's a ranking system between #10 and #1. Like is #10 the worst of best? I'd like to play the game already, Simon.
George (4 months ago)
Ironically , the Italian politicians would never be strong enough to have a NEW Roman Empire .
KingFluffs (4 months ago)
Why do you keep stopping when your talking? lol
Stephen Cooper (4 months ago)
Great video and great details of the ones I knew of spot in most important things that happened included .and learned about few more .thanks👍
Craig Stevenson (4 months ago)
Seriously?!?! You've included Boudicca, Pyrrhus of Epirus and Archimedes in here...but not Gaiseric, King of the Vandals and Alans?! Gaiseric's life and reign would make a great movie. Boudicca was a localized revolt against the Romans and even then she couldn't overpower a vastly smaller force. Several hundred thousand versus ten thousand, they lose eighty thousand and the Romans lose four hundred? What made her that much of a dangerous enemy? That she looted and burned settlements and drove off badly organized Roman forces? Boudicca is mostly used as an example because it was the last gasp of the druids and because she was one of the earliest examples of British nationalism. And Pyrrhus was never going to defeat the Romans because he VASTLY underestimated campaigning logistics in a foreign country. And Archimedes was more of a localized threat than an over-arching enemy. Gaiseric became King of both the Vandals and Alans in 428AD and right from the outset proved his leadership. While building his fleet to cross into Africa the Vandals were attacked in Lusitania by the Suebi under their king Heremigarius, who he defeated and in the rout, Heremigarius drowned in the nearby lake. In 429AD he led 80,000 from Spain into Africa (possibly at the request of the Count of Africa, Bonifatius). When they arrived there they turned on the Romans, defeated a combined Eastern and Western Roman army and laid siege to the city of Hippo Regius for fourteen months between 430 and 431AD which led to the death of the Christian writer and theologian Saint Augustine of Hippo. In 435AD the Romans concluded peace with Gaiseric which secured them control of Mauretania and part of Numidia. In 439 they attacked and took Carthage, one of the largest cities in the entirety of the Roman Empire. By 442AD he had secured the entirety of the Roman Africa province, including the Balearic Islands, Sicily, Corsica, and Sardinia in a treaty which made them an independent kingdom. In 455AD the Western Emperor Valentinian III was murdered and Gaiseric believed this voided his peace agreement. He sailed with his fleet to Italy and sacked Rome. In response to the new threat the Vandals posed, in 461AD the Emperor Majorian tried to launch an invasion of Africa from the province of Carthaginiensis. Before the fleet could leave it was attacked by a Vandal pre-emptive raid and by saboteurs which decimated the Roman efforts and led to the Emperor's assassination. In 468AD the Eastern and Western Roman Empires sent a combined fleet and army to attack the Vandals after having retaken Sicily, Sardinia and Libya from the Vandals. This expedition numbered around about 50,000 men and around 1,100 ships. The Vandal King Gaiseric asked for time to formulate a peace treaty and the Eastern Commander Basilliscus (brother-in-law to the Eastern Roman Emperor Leo) agreed, mooring his fleet off the coast at Cape Bon. The Vandals then launched a surprise attack on the Byzantines, sending a fleet of ships filled with flammable materials into the Byzantine armada and then attacking when they were panicked. The result was a decisive victory for the Vandals, with the number of ships burned, sunk or captured being somewhere around 500-600 and the casualties being around about 10,000. Basiliscus fled and returned to the East where he hid in the Hagia Sophia. These expeditions had crippled the Western Empire and signalled the end of any attempts of the West to recapture Africa. The cost also dealt a severe financial blow to the Eastern Empire Gaiseric and the Vandals were the first Germanic peoples to build a naval fleet and they used this to pillage and plunder across the the Mediterranean, disrupting trade in this area for nearly a century. Between 468 and 475AD the Vandals embarked on attacks as far as the Peloponnesus in Greece capturing the town of Nicopolis before being driven back at Zakynthus. They also raided Alexandria in Egypt. There is also a theory that one of the reasons Atilla was actually swayed by gifts and diplomacy to change his sights from attacking the Eastern to the Western Empire. The Gothic historian Jordanes even noted that "he was far-sighted in inducing foreign peoples to act in his interests, and resourceful in sowing seeds of discord and stirring up hatred". And perhaps the most impressive aspect? He ruled the Vandals and Alans for 50 years as King, Roman treaties recognizing him as 'Rex Wandalorum et Alanorum". And unlike Attila, he carved out a lasting kingdom from the collapsing Western Roman Empire as his legacy.
HeiniSauerkraut (4 months ago)
Arminius?!
Ellen Cox (4 months ago)
As a descendant Of King Alaric I thank you for this presentation, fascinating!
Christopher Milo (4 months ago)
Funny, you don't look like him.
dmcgee3 (4 months ago)
Are those French subtitles on the clip of the surrender of the Gaul king from HBOs Rome? Was that intentional?
steweygrrr (4 months ago)
Correction: The Roman Empire was the greatest *that we know of*. We basically know next to nothing about anything before Ancient Mesopotamia but there is evidence of a civilisation in the southern Ukraine from around 12,000BCE that appears to be the basis for several Asian, European and potentially the Americas too. This may have been the result of diaspora or a huge empire. The point is we just don't know.
steweygrrr (4 months ago)
I don't know the name but I know it was discovered in Mezine. It my be the Aratta civilisation but it may be something else.
Romanian Székely (4 months ago)
What is the name of that culture?
vasp99 (4 months ago)
Re: Mithradates . You've done a huge disservice to the great Roman senator and general Luculus who actually did the lion's share of the effort to defeat Mithradates . Luculus and his Fimbrianii legions devasted the eastern Greek/Persian kingdoms but was undone by a mutiny . Pompey simply mopped up all of the gains won by Luculus and was not "sent" in by the senate as you imply until after year of success by Luculus .
ollierkul (4 months ago)
"Do not shed tear, there is no greater victory than to fall from this world a free man"
Oddish (4 months ago)
Varus give me back my legions!
H. A. R. D (4 months ago)
The parthian general Surena is think he was called defeated 7 legions of Rome and killed marcus crasus the riches man in Rome. The parthian general has 9000 horse archers and 1000 knights. The Romans I believe had 45 thousand legionaries and the other troops from the son of crasus.
ciaran dolan (4 months ago)
what about the insurgencies Rome could not win there was endless rebellion in Gaul from the Vercingetorix revolt until the triumph of the bagaudae Rome never completely Romanized the rural areas especially Armorica and all roman sources who were willing to talk about these military and cultural embarrassments made it plain that in Armorica they never penetrated the forests unless they were pursuing bands of bagaudae and Britain was even more of an embarrassment the mountains, uplands, forests and marsh's might have as well been ignored since they were basically either completely unromanized in everything from mode of life to language and even religion or the inhabitants were simply picking and choosing what they would follow or not follow making the romans think they had more control than they actually did this becomes painfully clear when Zosimus stated that the Britons eventually evicted most if not all roman magistrates and set up home rule in 409 AD and the only part that could be reliably claimed to have been mostly or completely Romanized was the southeast corner of Britain which was completely reliant on roman arms for defense. In Gaul just before the romans lost complete control over the east, south, south west, north east and center due to invasions from over the Rhine they gave Armorica self rule and a place as foederati for Armorican archers after Attila came because bagaudae archers were the hun archers only match successfully beating them during the battle of cataluanian fields beating the hun night attack
Adam Arfal (4 months ago)
1:56 Carthage is 50 miles from Rome?
aysseralwan (4 months ago)
Rome as in the nearest imperial roman territory
Jim Schwartz (4 months ago)
I think he meant to say that the Roman Empire (southern tip of Italy) was only 50 miles from Carthage.
WarmasterGazz (4 months ago)
yeah i was going to mention that, that cant be right

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